to say nothing of the dangers, and labours, and even of the pain
which every virtuous man willingly encounters on behalf of his country, or
of his family, to such a degree that he not only does not seek for, but
even disregards all pleasures, and prefers even to endure any pain
whatever rather than to forsake any part of his duty; let us come to those
things which show this equally, but which appear of less importance. What
pleasure do you, O Torquatus, what pleasure does this Triarius derive from
literature, and history, and the knowledge of events, and the reading of
poets, and his wonderful recollection of such numbers of verses? And do
not say to me, Why all these things are a pleasure to me. So, too, were
those noble actions to the Torquati. Epicurus never asserts this in this
manner; nor would you, O Triarius, nor any man who had any wisdom, or who
had ever imbibed those principles. And as to the question which is often
asked, why there are so many Epicureans--there are several reasons; but
this is the one which is most seductive to the multitude, namely, that
people imagine that what he asserts is that those things which are right
and honourable do of themselves produce joy, that is, pleasure. Those
excellent men do not perceive that the whole system is overturned if that
is the case. For if it were once granted, even although there were no
reference whatever to the body, that these things were naturally and
intrinsically pleasant; then virtue and knowledge would be intrinsically
desirable. And this is the last thing which he would choose to admit.

These principles, then, of Epicurus, I say, I do not approve of. As for
other matters, I wish either that he himself had been a greater master of
learning, (for he is, as you yourself cannot help seeing, not sufficiently
accomplished in those branches of knowledge which men possess who are
accounted learned,) or at all events that he had not deterred others from
the study of literature: although I see that you yourself have not been at
all deterred from such pursuits by him.

VIII. And when I had said this, more for the purpose of exciting him than
of speaking myself, Triarius, smiling gently, said,--You, indeed, have
almost entirely expelled Epicurus from the number of philosophers. For
what have you left him except the assertion that, whatever his language
might he, you understood what he meant? He has in natural philosophy said
nothing but what is borrowed from othe