nd some debauched men so far from having any religious
scruples, that they will eat even out of the sacred vessels; and so far
from fearing death that they are constantly repeating that passage out of
the Hymnis,(29)--

Six months of life for me are quite sufficient,
The seventh may be for the shades below,--

and bringing up that Epicurean remedy for pain, as if they were taking it
out of a medicine chest: "If it is bitter, it is of short duration; if it
lasts a long time, it must be slight in degree." There is one thing which
I do not understand, namely, how a man who is devoted to luxury can
possibly have his appetites under restraint.

VIII. What then is the use of saying, I should have nothing to reproach
them with if they only set bounds to their appetites? This is the same as
saying, I should not blame debauched men if they were not debauched men.
In the same way one might say, I should not blame even wicked men if they
were virtuous. This man of strict morality does not think luxury of itself
a thing to be blamed. And, indeed, O Torquatus, to speak the truth, if
pleasure is the chief good, he is quite right not to think so. For I
should be sorry to picture to myself, (as you are in the habit of doing,)
men so debauched as to vomit over the table and be carried away from
banquets, and then the next day, while still suffering from indigestion,
gorge themselves again; men who, as they say, have never in their lives
seen the sun set or rise, and who, having devoured their patrimony, are
reduced to indigence. None of us imagine that debauched men of that sort
live pleasantly. You, however, rather mean to speak of refined and elegant
_bons vivans_, men who, by the employment of the most skilful cooks and
bakers, and by carefully culling the choicest products of fishermen,
fowlers, and hunters, avoid all indigestion--

Men who draw richer wines from foaming casks.

As Lucilius says, men who

So strain, so cool the rosy wine with snow,
That all the flavour still remains uninjured--

and so on--men in the enjoyment of luxuries such that, if they are taken
away, Epicurus says that he does not know what there is that can be called
good. Let them also have beautiful boys to attend upon them; let their
clothes, their plate, their articles of Corinthian _vertu_, the
banqueting-room itself, all correspond, still I should never be induced to
say that these men so devoted to luxury were liv