ge, for the first time; and his plea when put in, as well as I
can recollect it, amounted to this: that he never had any talk with Judge
Taney or the President of the United States with regard to the Dred Scott
decision before it was made. I (Lincoln) ought to know that the man who
makes a charge without knowing it to be true falsifies as much as he who
knowingly tells a falsehood; and, lastly, that he would pronounce the
whole thing a falsehood; but, he would make no personal application of
the charge of falsehood, not because of any regard for the "kind, amiable,
intelligent gentleman," but because of his own personal self-respect! I
have understood since then (but [turning to Judge Douglas] will not hold
the Judge to it if he is not willing) that he has broken through the
"self-respect," and has got to saying the thing out. The Judge nods to me
that it is so. It is fortunate for me that I can keep as good-humored as I
do, when the Judge acknowledges that he has been trying to make a question
of veracity with me. I know the Judge is a great man, while I am only a
small man, but I feel that I have got him. I demur to that plea. I waive
all objections that it was not filed till after default was taken, and
demur to it upon the merits. What if Judge Douglas never did talk with
Chief Justice Taney and the President before the Dred Scott decision
was made, does it follow that he could not have had as perfect an
understanding without talking as with it? I am not disposed to stand upon
my legal advantage. I am disposed to take his denial as being like an
answer in chancery, that he neither had any knowledge, information, or
belief in the existence of such a conspiracy. I am disposed to take his
answer as being as broad as though he had put it in these words. And now,
I ask, even if he had done so, have not I a right to prove it on him, and
to offer the evidence of more than two witnesses, by whom to prove it; and
if the evidence proves the existence of the conspiracy, does his broader
answer denying all knowledge, information, or belief, disturb the fact?
It can only show that he was used by conspirators, and was not a leader of
them.

Now, in regard to his reminding me of the moral rule that persons who tell
what they do not know to be true falsify as much as those who knowingly
tell falsehoods. I remember the rule, and it must be borne in mind that
in what I have read to you, I do not say that I know such a conspiracy
to ex