. For they need to have a quick perception and knowledge
of harmonies and rhythms; otherwise, how can they ever know whether a
melody would be rightly sung to the Dorian mode, or to the rhythm which
the poet has assigned to it?

CLEINIAS: Clearly they cannot.

ATHENIAN: The many are ridiculous in imagining that they know what is in
proper harmony and rhythm, and what is not, when they can only be made
to sing and step in rhythm by force; it never occurs to them that they
are ignorant of what they are doing. Now every melody is right when it
has suitable harmony and rhythm, and wrong when unsuitable.

CLEINIAS: That is most certain.

ATHENIAN: But can a man who does not know a thing, as we were saying,
know that the thing is right?

CLEINIAS: Impossible.

ATHENIAN: Then now, as would appear, we are making the discovery that
our newly-appointed choristers, whom we hereby invite and, although
they are their own masters, compel to sing, must be educated to such an
extent as to be able to follow the steps of the rhythm and the notes of
the song, that they may know the harmonies and rhythms, and be able to
select what are suitable for men of their age and character to sing; and
may sing them, and have innocent pleasure from their own performance,
and also lead younger men to welcome with dutiful delight good
dispositions. Having such training, they will attain a more accurate
knowledge than falls to the lot of the common people, or even of the
poets themselves. For the poet need not know the third point, viz.,
whether the imitation is good or not, though he can hardly help knowing
the laws of melody and rhythm. But the aged chorus must know all the
three, that they may choose the best, and that which is nearest to the
best; for otherwise they will never be able to charm the souls of young
men in the way of virtue. And now the original design of the argument
which was intended to bring eloquent aid to the Chorus of Dionysus, has
been accomplished to the best of our ability, and let us see whether
we were right:--I should imagine that a drinking assembly is likely to
become more and more tumultuous as the drinking goes on: this, as we
were saying at first, will certainly be the case.

CLEINIAS: Certainly.

ATHENIAN: Every man has a more than natural elevation; his heart is glad
within him, and he will say anything and will be restrained by nobody
at such a time; he fancies that he is able to rule over himself and all