e not able to commit the task of
ruling to any one who is better than themselves, or indeed as good.
For there is reason to think that if a city were composed entirely of
good men, then to avoid office would be as much an object of contention
as to obtain office is at present; then we should have plain proof that
the true ruler is not meant by nature to regard his own interest, but
that of his subjects; and every one who knew this would choose rather
to receive a benefit from another than to have the trouble of
conferring one. So far am I from agreeing with Thrasymachus that
justice is the interest of the stronger. This latter question need not
be further discussed at present; but when Thrasymachus says that the
life of the unjust is more advantageous than that of the just, his new
statement appears to me to be of a far more serious character. Which
of us has spoken truly? And which sort of life, Glaucon, do you prefer?

I for my part deem the life of the just to be the more advantageous, he
answered.

Did you hear all the advantages of the unjust which Thrasymachus was
rehearsing?

Yes, I heard him, he replied, but he has not convinced me.

Then shall we try to find some way of convincing him, if we can, that
he is saying what is not true?

Most certainly, he replied.

If, I said, he makes a set speech and we make another recounting all
the advantages of being just, and he answers and we rejoin, there must
be a numbering and measuring of the goods which are claimed on either
side, and in the end we shall want judges to decide; but if we proceed
in our enquiry as we lately did, by making admissions to one another,
we shall unite the offices of judge and advocate in our own persons.

Very good, he said.

And which method do I understand you to prefer? I said.

That which you propose.

Well, then, Thrasymachus, I said, suppose you begin at the beginning
and answer me. You say that perfect injustice is more gainful than
perfect justice?

SOCRATES - GLAUCON - THRASYMACHUS

Yes, that is what I say, and I have given you my reasons.

And what is your view about them? Would you call one of them virtue
and the other vice?

Certainly.

I suppose that you would call justice virtue and injustice vice?

What a charming notion! So likely too, seeing that I affirm injustice
to be profitable and justice not.

What else then would you say?

The opposite, he replied.

And would you call justice vice?