to the latter, and continued to talk while Nekhludoff was
talking.

"I cannot agree with you that the aim of courts is to support the
existing order of things. The courts have their aims: either the
correction----"

"Prisons are great places for correction," Nekhludoff put in.

"Or the removal," persistently continued Ignatius Nikiforovitch, "of
those depraved and savage people who threaten the existence of
society."

"That is just where the trouble is. Courts can do neither the one nor
the other. Society has no means of doing it."

"How is that? I don't understand----" asked Ignatius Nikiforovitch, with
a forced smile.

"I mean to say that there are only two sensible modes of
punishment--those that have been used in olden times: corporal
punishment and capital punishment. But with the advance of
civilization they have gone out of existence."

"That is both new and surprising to hear from you."

"Yes, there is sense in inflicting pain on a man that he might not
repeat that for which the pain was inflicted; and it is perfectly
sensible to cut the head off a harmful and dangerous member of
society. But what sense is there in imprisoning a man, who is depraved
by idleness and bad example, and keeping him in secure and compulsory
idleness in the society of the most depraved people? Or to transport
him, for some reason, at an expense to the government of five hundred
roubles, from the District of Tula to the District of Irkutsk, or from
Kursk----"

"But people seem to fear these journeys at government expense. And
were it not for these journeys, we would not be sitting here as we are
sitting now."

"Prisons cannot secure our safety, because people are not imprisoned
for life, but are released. On the contrary, these institutions are
the greatest breeders of vice and corruption--_i. e._, they increase
the danger."

"You mean to say that the penitentiary system ought to be perfected?"

"It cannot be perfected. Perfected prisons would cost more than is
spent on popular education and would be a new burden on the populace."

"But the deficiencies of the penitentiary system do not invalidate the
judicial system," Ignatius Nikiforovitch again continued, without
listening to his brother-in-law.

"These deficiencies cannot be corrected," said Nekhludoff, raising
his voice.

"What then? Would you kill? Or, as a certain statesman suggested,
pluck out their eyes?" said Ignatius Nikiforovitch, smiling
triumphantly.